[This] playground was the best in the world, to me.
I didn’t live in Oaklahoma so I couldn’t really compare but New York City was just awesome.
On 125th street – that was the first station I ever snuck into, so I’ll always remember that. You know where the trains go [above ground]? Those are the projects that we lived in back in the day. It was just, everywhere, we got to roam everywhere — all the five boroughs. We were on the subways and– that as a learning experience, it was just amazing.
I didn’t know from class, or money issues or race dynamics, or — or any those issues. I didn’t — somehow maybe being black and white. I didn’t know I was Jewish or any of those things, until maybe around 14, I remember we were coming home one day, me and my friends, and on my dining room table my mom had left a note for me and my brother, or my other siblings, and it said: “Don’t forget to meet us at the Jewish Center.” And my friends looked and they were just “OOOOOHHH YOU’RE JEWISH!” And it was all this big thing, and I thought Oh, am I Jewish? Am I supposed to be ashamed of being Jewish? No. But it was no big deal. We were all, anyway – we were all Irish, Spanish, Black, Cuban anyway. But maybe the Jewish religion thing, you know. And I was like oh I’m Jewish, so.
But other than that the city was just great growing up. I never had any issues with race or anything. I was even the Jewish kid in a gospel choir as a teen, a pre-teen – around 14, 15. Up here in Harlem. We used to travel. The Martin Luther King All Male Glee Club. We used to travel around the world, literally. London, Paris, singing.
But I don’t know, New York City is just the best place to hang out.
She was a woman. And he was a man. Enough said.
Um. He was just abusive. I mean, obviously she should have known but you were naive back then, you didn’t have the internet. You didn’t have Oprah, you know, to warn you. Or these chat groups or Dr. Phil. She just fell in love with this guy up there.
You know, she used to take the A train, she was the the only white girl going up to Harlem to watch the Apollo Theater with her black girlfriends. But she didn’t think it was any big issue, nobody ever called her out, or tried to beat her up. And then they went further when she got older, and she went up to Savoy Ballroom, met this guy who was a jazz dancer, and he was very slick with the ladies. And she knew that there were other women, and wise, but she figured the buck would stop, as most people do, the buck stops with me. And that so did not happen.
And things just happened, you know? Men become abusive. They’ll do whatever they can to rule the person [they’re with]. And once you’re in there, and they’ve had sex a couple of times, they start calling the shots again like they’re running things and you should just be happy to be in their world. And a lot of times women are still just happy to be in their world. But my mom was not so happy.
And then the punches came. And he would beat her up and knock her teeth out. I didn’t even know– I always thought every adult had fake teeth. They put them on the side table in a jar, until I got older and thought oh whoa– he knocked them all– they’re all fake– the whole bridge up there—
And he was very abusive. I remember my mom would tell me stories about how my sister would cry and throw up at the sight of her being beat up, and my father would make her eat the vomit. Stupid shit like that.
So around 6 she was finally– she got rid of his ass. Somehow she filed for separation. And he died when I was 12, so for 6 years she got her ass together. She said “alright.” And she was tough! So here she was this white woman, and she was an only child too. And her husband and her father and her mother died all in the same year. And it was like this big vacuum.
But to this day she’s my hero, because somehow… She may have cried and we didn’t know about it. But she did what she had to do, you know. “I’ve got five half-black kids up here in Harlem, I’ve got no money.” She handled this and that. She had no network, either. No cousins, no brothers, no uncles — nothing! But there was welfare and all these other government systems, and health aid, medicare and shit and she just handled her business. Never cried! Which is why I look at my friends who are these single moms with one kid like “stop your bitchin!” (Laughs.) You know? So she handled shit, brilliantly. To this day, I always try to remind her. Because now she’s frail and not the same. And insecure and depressed. And I always try to remind her: “Ma, you were bad-ass back in the day. You didn’t have time to sit back and be depressed, or worry about your man, or this or that.” She just had to handle shit.
And I always give props to that. When I think about people having to struggle. Just do what you gotta do. Don’t worry about boyfriends or girlfriends. Love is love, it’s organic, let it happen. And if it falls out of love, that’s organic too. Don’t stress that either! Don’t abuse. I got a hard lesson from my father. Don’t abuse, don’t touch women, don’t cheat on women! So that was good, he taught me something! (Laughs.)
So she’s my strength. So you know, I give props to her.
I don’t have any pleasant memories of my father. At all.
I don’t remember any dark side [either]! Maybe I blocked it out. Or maybe he didn’t do it in front of me and my brother. I don’t remember any of that, at all. I remember going to visit him. And he was much older than my mother. He was 24 years older than my mom. So I’m essentially looking at this old man, you know? And he would just sit there watching the baseball on TV. So no.
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He used to get us boxing gloves, and um — gifts. We would meet him every other Sunday. That was our time to visit him. He lived on 112th Street, so we would get to see him every other Sunday.
But memories from my mother — she used to tell me stories about — he used to go to a restaurant — this is ghetto. (Laughs.) There’s a book by the Wayan’s brothers called You Know You’re Ghetto When. Like: if you have a thousand dollars in your pocket but that’s all the money you got. (Laughs.) But you know you’re ghetto when, like, my father would take a pill bottle with cockroaches in it and go to a restaurant, and half way through a fabulous meal, he would let a few out, “Oh waiter, what the fuck is this??” That’s ghetto. Or take some used mop strings into an Italian restaurant with a pasta dinner and put some used mop strings in there. And get a free meal!
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My mom. I can’t really talk much about things with her because it’s this ugly period, so I always try to block it out, you know? And he’s somewhat celebrated as a dancer, there’s a lot of footage of him online and in film. And there’s been a couple of award shows, and me and my brother have gone and accepted awards on his behalf, posthumously. Film Forum did this big two hour thing on him once, and my mom showed up for that one. She was thinking there was some money in it. Can’t knock her!
History was always an interesting thing, always an impressive thing.
And then travelling the world, I was able to tie in from books to reality. What are they telling us about Moscow, and then when I was in Moscow, and it was Iron Curtain time, I just thought well this is not all that.
And being a slickster from New York, I got around it, but I was– But maybe that was part of it. Because I remember having political discussions in Moscow with some students — I remember one particular instance, as they were getting me drunk on Stoli and I was being Mr. Talky Talky and my friend was like, “Shut up, Oliver. Be polite!” I was like, “No! This is– this is the horses’ mouth! We got some Communists here!”
They were students, but they had Beatles albums and everything, and you know, whatever. Rock n roll. And they were playing all western music, and they were cool kids, and you know –18, 19. But one of them — we got into a little deep discussion about politics, and about our country vs. theirs. And they were like, “you know, in America you only have one boss and he rules 400 workers,” you know, as opposed to their free state there, “and everybody has a fair share but equal moneys or equal wages” or whatever. And I said, “Oh good point,” you know, then I said to them “But! Every one of those workers can get to be that boss in my country.” And they were like “Oh-kay,” you know?
And then I went to college after that semester at sea, so maybe that was it. So I started taking poly-sci, and I was a double major. And um. I was just curious, and then I realized whoa this is so absurd, you know.
And I didn’t know if I was full of shit. Because I was never the smart one. Ever. Not book smart, anyway. And still that’s the case. And it’ll be amazing if I can pull this book off… But I was never the smart one. Book smart. I was never well-versed, well read, or anything like that. So I would just ramble, like I’m rambling now, in class. And the other students would look at me like [perplexed] “oh-kay…” And you know, I got passing grades, I don’t remember if they were passing grades or lettered or whatever. And I always thought maybe they thought I’m wackadoodle, or whatever. Or maybe I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about. And that was that.
But then the professor — he always had a poker face, he never said anything, you know. But then, about a year after I graduated, I went back to school, hung out on campus to visit, and it was a keg party. Went over to the keg, and I was waiting on line and I heard somebody call my name “OLIVER!!” And so one of the new students there or somebody said “Oh are you Oliver?” and I said “Yeah” and they said “Oh Mr. Kovitz was talkin about you in class, he kept referring to this guy Oliver and his works and his writing.” So that was kind of a good day. I guess I did make some impact, but I was never smart, book-smart. But I always got a sense of things, you know? And my sense was this is all bullshit.
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[My siblings and I] we’re kinda torn. I guess it’s personalities, you know. Maybe it’s your sign, you know. But some of us — five of us — they love the ground my father walked on. And I’m like yo I will spit on that ground. If he were alive today, I would probably be in jail. And me and my brother, we’re the most mommy’s boys. And we cause her consternation too, because we can be from hell. Like, I’m trying to get her to exercise, and she’s like “leave me alone, you’re hovering over me.”
But my other sisters, not so much. And my younger sister, she’s cool now but she kinda thought she was abandoned by my mom at a certain age. And well, she was, but technically, but not really. But at some point my mom had to get out. I think she moved to Fire Island at some point. And I got back from college and my sister grew up essentially with my other sister, and no mommy, and obviously she didn’t have a daddy.
But they’re cool, and there’s much love. Much love. Don’t get me wrong, at all. My sister in California, one of them has issues on her own, so there’s always some consternation twixt the two. The oldest, the first born. And the other one… It’s all love. At the end of the day there is that. At the end of the day there is definite love. And of course, for mom. But we all have our emotional issues and our personal things that can be abusive to the mothership. And of course she’s frail as she gets on in years, and um, but she loves her kids. And she’s a therapist. That was born out of that whole thing. Then she was alone, she went and got therapy, and then she learned from these therapy classes. And then she became a therapist and did her thing.
Every religion and every culture has something where the woman gets the short end of the stick.
How insecure are men, with regards to women! It’s freaking amazing! Of course, my father being a wife beater didn’t help, so —
So– of course we’ve had female leaders throughout the world, but it’s not like the U.S. Because they say, as the U.S. goes, so goes the world. Arrogantly, of course. But that’s what’s at stake.
That said. When Bill decided to have oral sex under the desk, I thought that was a great opportunity for her to walk. And I didn’t like that, I thought she took the women’s movement back two steps! Alright, that’s. Alright. Whatever. But either way! She’s a woman, and if she’s good or bad, I don’t care. Because the infrastructure’s in place. It doesn’t matter. There’s already a They telling you what to do before you get elected.
So I don’t worry about change like that. Trump, obviously, is an idiot, so why would you want that person in there. Even the Republicans, they’re like, this is the worst election for them ever! But he’s obviously not fit to lead, and we know that. So that, for me, just would not be a good look. I’m not worried about what he can do for the country – “get America right again,” everyone’s had some variation of that theme, as if the last administration was from hell. No administration has put us into the hole financially, or through wars (because we’re always in wars), so what’s at stake is the person and the figure head.
Representation. That has the most long-lasting effect.
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What’s at stake is I think greater than healthcare, pulling people out of war — although that’s of course important — the economy, education system — anything you can name and put them in a pot, combined! The fact that a black man was elected president in this country is far more reaching, more significant, more powerful — and more moving to me personally, and to the world! — than anything he could do [in office]. And of course he didn’t fuck up while he was there too, that always helps.
David Dinkins — when he was elected the first black mayor, there was that pride moment too. And you could see all the black ladies in the city with such pride. You know they had their little church caps on, and you know. That’s what’s important. Because they too knew that shit doesn’t really change. But that image is significant. And that moves people forward.
Growing up, all you see is white politicians, white leaders. You look at that list of leaders on your grade school classroom. And you know in the class that I went to, yeah we had Mary McLeod Bethune, and a couple of black people thrown in there — you know, your Marcus Garvey — we had some black history because it was in Harlem.
So Barrack put a black family in the White House. And that is the biggest most powerful image for humanity. That thrusts humanity so far forward, like nothing you could ever imagine. Because dignity is the most important thing. Before everything. Before finances. The single most important thing we have is dignity, I believe. And if you take that away from somebody than that’s it. It’s an ugly place.
And now there’s a little 8 year old kid with a picture of a black president in his classroom. And he goes home to white daddy and mommy and he goes “What are you talking about, blacks are bad?” So he’s confused now. But he’ll figure out what’s right anyway, because he’s listening to hip-hop music and he’s watching sports, and all sports are now black. So he’s going to have a different take – which is great! That’s how we move for real.
You mostly heard.
It was humanity coming into the streets. Maybe there were thousands. And you can look at Lincoln park, in Chicago — the same thing. Thousands of people. I remember looking at Oprah Winfrey, that night of the election, when he won, and the final electoral votes came in, and you see her in the park, in the crowd and there’s a camera on her. She was like, like she just came out of a football game. “The whole world is shifting!” She just had this intensity, I’ll never forget it. That transcended, she was just not being formal about it. She was just really, you know.
That’s what I felt, and everybody who called me that night. And the phones were ringing off the hook.
And all up and down the streets, and the horns are honking like we won the World Series — so that’s how I know that celebration, you know. And on the TV they show the Apollo, and you have some reporter up there being jostled by the crowd. [Sings:] “Ain’t No Stoppin Us Now” or whatever it was at the time.
And I’m sure, every-one, if there were a million people in Manhattan — and white people too, but they were filling Time Square watching the thing — and everyone was dancing and jubilant, jubilant.
Not one of those people — I bet, to my grave, not one of those people were joyous about healthcare, education, pulling out troops. None of those things you do administratively. It was a black person, it was a non-rich white man.
But I know that night, that instant. It was like that waiting to exhale type of thing. I mean, the nation’s been waiting to exhale for two– three hundred years. And that night, you felt the breath coming out of humanity. And not just in this country, the world around. Around the world you just felt this exhaling. And you really felt this cataclysmic shift in the globe. I’ll never forget it. It was really really rich, palpable.
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Q: You said you got a lot of phone calls Obama night. Did you get a lot of phone calls last night?
Not a one.
Which is funny, how I do. Because with sports, I turn my phone off. I block out sports. I’m a nervous wreck watching. I don’t watch the Super Bowl. I’ll watch it for half time. And I never end up having a non-dog in the fight. I’m always fighting and able to root for one team over the other. I’m not the kind of person where I just wanna see a good game. Fuck that. I want my team to blow out the other team. So I’m sitting here stressing, biting my nails. Because I’m not into cliff hangers and all that shit. So what I usually do with sports — like, LeBron, when he was in the finals, I didn’t watch it for like four days. I didn’t know who won. And sometimes I’ll look at my phone because my brother will text me like “YES!” Just “yes,” and I’m like “OH YEAH WE WON!” And then I go back to watching, finally turning back the channel from Sponge Bob to the news or sports channels. But I’m like that with all sports. And I’ll block out. Like I’m not watching any sports today because my sports channel is going to be talking about politics and I don’t want to hear from politics. Don’t want it to interrupt my sports enjoyment.
And I’m not even listening to that pop radio station you heard me listening to the other day. I still like live stimuli, and if I’m down there [on the other side of the apartment], and my TV’s not down there and my laptop’s not down there — but everyone’s talking about it. Like even the pop radio station that plays bubblegum crap music is replaying the speeches. Like, no. Don’t interrupt Justin Bieber!
So last night — I’m always looking out for that “yes” from my brother, and of course if it’s the Super Bowl, and I want my team to win it and I don’t get that little ping on my phone I’m like “aw shit, we lost,” so I go to bed thinking we lost, or whatever.
So last night I’m doing the same thing. I turned my phone off. So I don’t have to hear that ping, but I was hoping for the ping! Because he wouldn’t call me if we lost. So that’s how that works, like no news is bad news.
But then I came back and turned it back on, and I looked for my texts. No texts. Aw shit it’s 11 o’clock — 11:30 — no texts. So I went through that pathetic shit. For someone who’s not into politics. But again, I wasn’t into politics, I wanted not Donald. I wanted a woman.
So no I didn’t get any calls last night, and I knew that was the death knell.
It’s important for anybody who is historically perceived as less than.
And you can fill in the blanks for what less than can be. It’s important for them, when they have that opportunity, to do good. To have a good showing, you know?
Then it’s more important to not prove them right. So they can’t say you got voted in as a glitch, or whatever. You know. But if you get in and you fuck up, then it gives credence to the glitch and the notion that you are less. Which is all bullshit. I mean, is that really a tangible idea? But yes and no. So you still wanna root for him not to fuck up. And [Barrack] didn’t. Of course, you talk to somebody else and they say he did.
But for me, usually my take on the general idea of America is that he didn’t fuck up. So there’s nothing egregious. And I always monitor the stocks and they — from eight years ago — they kept going up. So, the economy wasn’t crashing, it was improved! Steadily steadily, no matter what the talking heads on Fox News or wherever, the reality is that.
I’m somewhat linked to real estate. People were building, buying and building. And in terms of war? There’s always going to be war. We’re always fighting. And we’re always building up our military. No matter what. If we have a war tomorrow, we’re not using planes and ammunitions built 15 years ago. We are constantly building and constantly improving on technologies. Weapons technologies. No matter who’s in office.
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Four years ago and eight years ago, it was the same.
In any sporting event, there’s one team not happy. And one group of fans not happy, and everyone else is exhilarated. And for me, I need to relate it to sports, so you can process it and move on, and you realize there’s another day to fight. There’s another game tomorrow. There will be another game, in politics. But, you know, my whole thing is that nothing will change. You still have to do this, and I gotta do what I gotta do.
What’s at stake is a question of personality, image, perception. And then we could go into values, but what are the values of Trump? What are the values of Hillary? Do we really really really know? No. And we’ll never know, unless you know that person one on one.
So it’s just the image, and that’s the impact on humanity. When you had a black president, that was awesome — I mean, to me, anyway.